eVENT fabric: look out GoreTex. - Views From The Top

dolladoj · 05-16-2005, 01:30 PM

So for years GoreTex was the say all, be all of waterproof/breathable fabrics.

Entering the arena of WB fabrics is eVENT

The US Army's Natick tests of waterproof-breathable laminates reported that eVENT fabric, a patented ePTFE-based membrane produced and marketed by BHA Technologies, Inc. proved to be the most breathable of all materials tested, averaging twice the breathability of its closest competitor. Testing included the likes of Gore-Tex XCR®, Sympatex®, and various other waterproof-breathable fabrics.

While it's not brand new, I haven't seen much talk of it here so I thought I'd see if anyone had any experience with it.

The main difference that i can see between it and the other WB's is the lack of a solid laminate, generally polyurethane, so it's much more breathable.

Here's some web press
Geartrends review
eVENT homepage
Outdoor Industry Assoc release
Wild Things (of NH): Alpinist Jacket

David Metsky · 05-16-2005, 01:48 PM

Gore-Tex has been the brand to beat, not only because of the materials but because of the brand recognition, testing procedures, and deals with top garment manufacturers. There are many new fabrics/compounds that are good (and this sounds like one of the best) but like Beta vs VHS, there are many paths to success in the marketplace.

The Gore company hasn't stayed still, their new fabrics are improvements over the original GT and they keep moving forward. More quality players in the marketplace is a good thing.

One thing I always fall back on, it's possible to make a lousy jacket from great materials. I pay more attention to the garment manufacturer than to the materials, though both play a role in a purchase decision.

-dave-

Double Bow · 05-18-2005, 03:33 PM

I pay attention to both factors. I do take comfort in knowing that something is made by a reputable company but, what it's made out of is almost equally important.

Quack · 05-18-2005, 03:57 PM

I was told that recently (within the past two years) the patent on Gore-Tex expired, which is why all a lot of manufacturers have come out with their own waterproof / breathable fabrics.(EMS System III, North Face Hyvent, etc.) It's all the same as Gore-Tex, just marketed under a different name. It sounds like the eVent stuff is different, but has anyone else heard that Gore-Tex rumor? I'm asking because there are alot of well designed items out there, made from the knock-off fabrics, selling for substantially less money that their Gore-Tex counterparts. This info came from a guy at EMS, so it all could have been a sales pitch, but.....

David Metsky · 05-18-2005, 04:16 PM

The original patents on GT expired a long time ago. Fabrics similar to GT have been on the market for over 20 years. They continually make patents on new techniques, but their main strength now is their branding, reputation for testing, and continual improvements.

There's nothing particularly special about GT compared to the other fabrics, they all do essentially the same thing.

-dave-

Mark_Goodearl · 05-18-2005, 08:30 PM

The Wildthings store in Conway, NH has a counter display - two cylinders that have a air pump connected to the bottom, one has a GT layer, the other has an eVENT layer and above that is water. By squeezing the air pump you force air through the fabric and you see bubbles rise through the water. It's an incredible demonstration of how much more breathable eVENT is than GT! If you're ever in the area, stop in and check it out.

dolladoj · 05-19-2005, 09:30 AM

very cool, Mark. Yeah there are and have been a ton of competitors to GoreTex. Lots of companies use their own (like Cloudveil, LoweAlpine). It appears to me that eVent is an improvement on the WB technologies, rather than just a lateral move though. I'm intrigued.

dave.m · 05-19-2005, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Metsky

The original patents on GT expired a long time ago. Fabrics similar to GT have been on the market for over 20 years.

Have they?

My understanding is that GoreTex was the only microporous teflon (sorta) laminate.
There have been a whole slew of products that are microporuous polyurethane coatings like Ultrex, Entrant and Lowe Ceramic. Often these get rebranded. EMS System III and Patagonia H2No Storm are (were) both rebrandings of Entrant, for example. Finally, there is Symatex, which is a NON-porous laminate.

My further understanding is that the real secret for Gore was not the PFTE laminate layer but rather, the lamination process which bonds it to the fabric face. I *thought* that they could no longer protect that patent and that we should expect to see knock offs coming soon. Another bit of unconfirmed recollection in my addled brain is that the bonding process is no longer covered by patent but is a morel closely guarded trade secret than KFC original or Coke.

I'm interested in reading those reports on breathability. Some of those claims are muddled by marketing. For ex, Lowe's claimed better breathability than Gore but this was arguably not a valid test as it relied heavily on the the functioning of the DWR coating (and Lowe had the best).

IMO, this translates into 1 of 2 strategies for us buyers. One, buy a good warranty and return it when it delmaninates (I used to only get 2 seasons out of jacket and now, with kids, I'm getting 5). Two, buy the cheapest thing you can live with and toss it when it croaks.

DougPaul · 05-19-2005, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave.m

My understanding is that GoreTex was the only microporous teflon (sorta) laminate.
There have been a whole slew of products that are microporuous polyurethane coatings like Ultrex, Entrant and Lowe Ceramic. Often these get rebranded. EMS System III and Patagonia H2No Storm are (were) both rebrandings of Entrant, for example.

Considering the shelf life of polyurathane coatings on tents and raingear (they start to stink and peel), this would presumably limit the lifetime of the microporous coatings.

(Don't know what the shelf-life of the teflon coatings is.)

Quote:

My further understanding is that the real secret for Gore was not the PFTE laminate layer but rather, the lamination process which bonds it to the fabric face. I *thought* that they could no longer protect that patent and that we should expect to see knock offs coming soon. Another bit of unconfirmed recollection in my addled brain is that the bonding process is no longer covered by patent but is a morel closely guarded trade secret than KFC original or Coke.

Patents involve disclosure and are incompatible with trade secrets. However, it is quite possible that the process is/was protected by a
combination of patents and trade secrets.

Quote:

I'm interested in reading those reports on breathability. Some of those claims are muddled by marketing. For ex, Lowe's claimed better breathability than Gore but this was arguably not a valid test as it relied heavily on the the functioning of the DWR coating (and Lowe had the best).

It would be nice to see both breathability and waterproofness info. If the only thing I want is beathability, then a 60/40 (cotton/nylon for the newcomers) or 65/35 (cotton/polyester) shell would be fine. (Egyptian long-fiber cotton would work too.)

Doug

David Metsky · 05-19-2005, 04:04 PM

Gore Company Timeline

The first G-T jackets were introduced in 1976, nearly 30 years ago. Any patents that were in place then have expired, since patents only last 21 years. But note that in 1996 Gore received 89 new patents, so they are continually improving and modifying their products and manufacturing procedures.

Gore manufactures many products, and I suspect they have patents that cover all sorts of things. But there would be no longer be any patents in place to protect the process that Gore used in 1976 to make that fabric. Newer versions may be protected by patent or by industrial secrets.

-dave-

dolladoj · 05-19-2005, 04:36 PM

Thanks David, this is a pretty important piece of the timeline

GORE-TEX® XCR fabric, GORE-TEX® SUPPRESCENT® fabric and WINDSTOPPER® N2S in 2000,

XCR raised the W/B bar. And one could probably assume that they patented the XCR technology in 2000.

One other strain of thought I had on this topic is that GoreTex (or any of the laminate fabrics) can't be used on a true softshell. Gore-Tex Windstopper®, of course is used in several soft shells. eVENT seems versatile enough to go either way.

05-16-2005, 01:30 PM	#1
dolladoj Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: ___Boston___ Avatar: King's Castle Posts: 68	eVENT fabric: look out GoreTex. So for years GoreTex was the say all, be all of waterproof/breathable fabrics. Entering the arena of WB fabrics is eVENT The US Army's Natick tests of waterproof-breathable laminates reported that eVENT fabric, a patented ePTFE-based membrane produced and marketed by BHA Technologies, Inc. proved to be the most breathable of all materials tested, averaging twice the breathability of its closest competitor. Testing included the likes of Gore-Tex XCR®, Sympatex®, and various other waterproof-breathable fabrics. While it's not brand new, I haven't seen much talk of it here so I thought I'd see if anyone had any experience with it. The main difference that i can see between it and the other WB's is the lack of a solid laminate, generally polyurethane, so it's much more breathable. Here's some web press Geartrends review eVENT homepage Outdoor Industry Assoc release Wild Things (of NH): Alpinist Jacket

05-18-2005, 03:33 PM	#3
Double Bow Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Ashuelot, NH (anyone know where that is?) Avatar: Hiking brings people closer Posts: 1,184	I pay attention to both factors. I do take comfort in knowing that something is made by a reputable company but, what it's made out of is almost equally important. __________________ "I like to collect experiences the way other people like to collect coins and stamps." Michael McGuire "13.1 is my lucky number." -- Me 59/67 Winter NE4Ks [On hiatus] 33/53 52WAV [In progress... sort of]

05-18-2005, 08:30 PM	#6
Mark_Goodearl Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 81	Wildthings Conway NH Store: eVENT vs. Gore-Tex The Wildthings store in Conway, NH has a counter display - two cylinders that have a air pump connected to the bottom, one has a GT layer, the other has an eVENT layer and above that is water. By squeezing the air pump you force air through the fabric and you see bubbles rise through the water. It's an incredible demonstration of how much more breathable eVENT is than GT! If you're ever in the area, stop in and check it out.

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05-16-2005, 01:48 PM	#2
David Metsky Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Somerville, MA Avatar: Chicken Boy Posts: 3,928	Gore-Tex has been the brand to beat, not only because of the materials but because of the brand recognition, testing procedures, and deals with top garment manufacturers. There are many new fabrics/compounds that are good (and this sounds like one of the best) but like Beta vs VHS, there are many paths to success in the marketplace. The Gore company hasn't stayed still, their new fabrics are improvements over the original GT and they keep moving forward. More quality players in the marketplace is a good thing. One thing I always fall back on, it's possible to make a lousy jacket from great materials. I pay more attention to the garment manufacturer than to the materials, though both play a role in a purchase decision. -dave-

05-18-2005, 03:57 PM	#4
Quack Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Boston Posts: 81	I was told that recently (within the past two years) the patent on Gore-Tex expired, which is why all a lot of manufacturers have come out with their own waterproof / breathable fabrics.(EMS System III, North Face Hyvent, etc.) It's all the same as Gore-Tex, just marketed under a different name. It sounds like the eVent stuff is different, but has anyone else heard that Gore-Tex rumor? I'm asking because there are alot of well designed items out there, made from the knock-off fabrics, selling for substantially less money that their Gore-Tex counterparts. This info came from a guy at EMS, so it all could have been a sales pitch, but.....

05-18-2005, 04:16 PM	#5
David Metsky Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Somerville, MA Avatar: Chicken Boy Posts: 3,928	The original patents on GT expired a long time ago. Fabrics similar to GT have been on the market for over 20 years. They continually make patents on new techniques, but their main strength now is their branding, reputation for testing, and continual improvements. There's nothing particularly special about GT compared to the other fabrics, they all do essentially the same thing. -dave-

05-19-2005, 09:30 AM	#7
dolladoj Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: ___Boston___ Avatar: King's Castle Posts: 68	very cool, Mark. Yeah there are and have been a ton of competitors to GoreTex. Lots of companies use their own (like Cloudveil, LoweAlpine). It appears to me that eVent is an improvement on the WB technologies, rather than just a lateral move though. I'm intrigued.

05-19-2005, 04:04 PM	#10
David Metsky Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Somerville, MA Avatar: Chicken Boy Posts: 3,928	Gore Company Timeline The first G-T jackets were introduced in 1976, nearly 30 years ago. Any patents that were in place then have expired, since patents only last 21 years. But note that in 1996 Gore received 89 new patents, so they are continually improving and modifying their products and manufacturing procedures. Gore manufactures many products, and I suspect they have patents that cover all sorts of things. But there would be no longer be any patents in place to protect the process that Gore used in 1976 to make that fabric. Newer versions may be protected by patent or by industrial secrets. -dave-

05-19-2005, 04:36 PM	#11
dolladoj Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: ___Boston___ Avatar: King's Castle Posts: 68	Thanks David, this is a pretty important piece of the timeline GORE-TEX® XCR fabric, GORE-TEX® SUPPRESCENT® fabric and WINDSTOPPER® N2S in 2000, XCR raised the W/B bar. And one could probably assume that they patented the XCR technology in 2000. One other strain of thought I had on this topic is that GoreTex (or any of the laminate fabrics) can't be used on a true softshell. Gore-Tex Windstopper®, of course is used in several soft shells. eVENT seems versatile enough to go either way.